Talk:Brisbane

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Former good articleBrisbane was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 31, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
October 16, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
February 3, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
March 14, 2008Good article nomineeListed
March 14, 2008Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article
Stock post message.svg To-do list for Brisbane: edit·history·watch·refresh· Updated 2020-05-18

  • Brisbane has a very dark history with regards to Aboriginal and Indigenous Australians in the area...colonial history is important why is none of this mentioned?
  • Venues para - needs sourcing and rewriting for clarity
  • Annual events - needs sourcing
  • Media - inline cites
  • Utilities - choppy paras
  • No information as to what the proposed pipeline is and where it runs
  • The climate data table has significant errors. It sources the BOM but according to the Bureaus Brisbane regional office the city's annual rainfall is much higher than the amount in wiki. It also has less sunshine annual hours. Not 3000 but closer to 2730.
  • Historical Population information - note this was placed in the demographics of Brisbane article

Update of Brisbane Montage[edit]

Brisbane
Queensland
Skyline
Story Bridge
CityCat ferries
Queenslander
Brisbane City Hall

Does anyone think it would look better with these two images added, Story Bridge with Howard Smith Wharves, and a daytime image of Brisbane City Hall. The current montage is nice, but both are hard to make out which is odd because City Hall is easily Brisbane's best landmark so it should be easily seen.--Caltraser55 (talk) 01:20, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I think the daylight city hall image is better than what we currently have and should be changed however I think the existing night time Storey Bridge image lit up is more striking and shows the whole of the bridge - also it's probably good that we have one night time image and the neon style lighting is a trademark of how the BCC light up a lot of landmarks in the city.--StormcrowMithrandir 22:50, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply Mithrandir, I agree with you that a night time image of the Story Bridge is far better, but trying to find a good image on wikimedia seems impossible. But yes, the Brisbane City Hall is to Brisbane what Flinders Street Station is to Melbourne, so I think we need an image where you can more clearly see it. If you have any suggestions let me know.--Caltraser55 (talk) 01:15, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
I think the existing night image of the Storey Bridge which shows the full span is probably fine until a better one can be found. At some point I will also try and find/take a skyline shot which shows more of the skyline.--StormcrowMithrandir 02:26, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
@Caltraser55: What do you think of the montage on the page now? As part of about six hours straight worth of adding updated content to the article and removing various obscure/outdated (usually to the mid 2000s) references and quasi-advertising for pet businesses/events, etc, I have been going through the Wikimedia Commons looking for images. The skyline shot is now a daytime shot which shows the full massive extent of the Skyline from 1 William in the South over to Soleil in the north which I think is important as it shows the scale of the skyline which is extreme in world terms for a city of 2.5 million (in Europe and North America cities many times the size do not have anywhere near the number of 100m+ and 150m+ buildings or scale of skyline). All the tallest buildings are visible including 1 William , Skytower, Infinity, Soleil, Riparian, Aurora, 111 Eagle. It also shows the extent and width of the river. I have also found one of the Story Bridge which I am not too fussed on and while still a night image is much clearer than the previous one and also shows the distinctive lighting. Finally, I have found a citycat image (they are pretty much all the same as each other) although this one has the Botanic Gardens behind it so you get two landmarks into one (also a bit more photogenic than the nondescript bit of land behind the previous image).--StormcrowMithrandir 01:06, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Hi Mithrandir, personally I prefer the Eagle Street picture for the skyline I had as the current skyline from Kangaroo Point looks "not ready yet", maybe in another decade it will fill in enough and will look amazing, but I am happy with it enough to keep it. The rest is great, I only have a problem with the small white space between the city cat and the Queenslander image as the City cats a larger size. My second problem lies with some of the info opening paragraphs, I may edit and work over them again, things such as the climate I don't think are necessary for the opening.--Caltraser55 (talk) 07:37, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
@Caltraser55:; @StormcrowMithrandir:In case you are interested, there is a discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Relisted_proposal:_Allow_wikilinks_and_other_wikimarkup_from_Template:!_tooltip_text_in_photomotages_to_be_displayed_on_Media_Viewer.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of City of Brisbane into Brisbane[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
This discussion to merge City of Brisbane into Brisbane was resolved in the negative unanimously following clarification on the difference. ItsPugle (talk) 00:51, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

The City of Brisbane and Brisbane are pretty much indistinguishable from each other in reality and can be better represented with a single section in an article about the governmental structure (in terms of wards and electorates). Please leave your thoughts on this over here. ItsPugle (talk) 05:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

They are very, very different concepts and should in no way be merged. Nor are they merged for any other Australian capital city. This has also been discussed previously. The Brisbane article is about the metropolitan area of Brisbane as defined by the ABS, as with all Australian capital cities. It includes multiple local government areas. The City of Brisbane is just one of these local government areas. There is also the Moreton Bay Region, the City of Logan, the City of Ipswich, the Redlands City and part of the Scenic Rim Region which are all included in the Brisbane metropolitan area (and the subject matter of the Brisbane article). The City of Brisbane is just the largest of these local government areas, but it accounts for less than half of the population and area of Brisbane.
This is the same with Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and all other Australian capital city articles. The City of Sydney for example has a few hundred thousand people and accounts for some of the inner and eastern suburbs of Sydney. The City of Melbourne also has a few hundred thousand and includes some of the inner suburbs. There are separate articles for Sydney, Melbourne (which refer to the entire metro area) and City of Sydney/City of Melbourne (the inner LGA only). There is no justification at all for merging the innermost council areas with the articles for any of these cities at large. For Australian city articles, we always keep the concept of LGAs (local government areas) separate for this reason as their boundaries are arbitrary and all Australian metro areas include multiple parts of multiple LGAs. If you take a look for instance at City of Sydney, there is not (and should not be) separate articles for the Sydney City Council (which is just the name of the governing statutory corporation which governs the City of Sydney LGA) and 'City of Sydney'. Where there are separate articles is for 'Sydney' (as a whole, whose area includes the City of Sydney LGA and many, many other LGAs), and 'City of Sydney' (about the central LGA only which includes a section on that area's governing statutory corporation, namely the Sydney City Council).
You will see that I have now added an explanatory note at the head of the article in the same form as the one at the head of the Melbourne article and the Sydney article to explain that this article refers to the Brisbane metropolitan area, that City of Brisbane refers to the local government area which covers many of its inner suburbs, and that Brisbane central business district refers to the CBD. This should make this very clear to readers. StormcrowMithrandir 06:27, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose. City of Brisbane and Brisbane are different things. Subtropical-man ( | en-2) 21:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It's simply not true to say they "are pretty much indistinguishable from each other in reality" They are very different things. HiLo48 (talk) 23:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Division of Brisbane[edit]

Hello. It is widely known that Brisbane is divided into 5 local government areas (LGAs): City of Brisbane, City of Ipswich, Logan City, Moreton Bay Region, Redland City. But in Brisbane#Governance shows additionally Scenic Rim Region. I have a question: are there official sources that accurately describe the boundaries of Brisbane? Subtropical-man ( | en-2) 01:02, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

If you take a look on the Australian Bureau of Statistics each of the capital cities has a 'Greater Capital City Statistical Area' under their Australian Standard Geographical Classification which define statistial areas and which are used for all statistics. There are maps available of these areas. Only part of scenic rim is included I believe whereas I think part falls into Gold Coast statistical area and others.--StormcrowMithrandir 05:00, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Please see, (data from articles):

Local government area Population[1] (2018) Area
City of Brisbane 1 231 605 1,343 km²
Moreton Bay Region 459 585 2,042 km²
Logan City 326 615 958 km²
City of Ipswich 213 638 1,094 km²
Redland City 156 863 537 km²
Total 2 388 303 5,974 km²

The population is accepted (2.4 million in 2018) but area is totally unacceptable for official figures. See Greater Brisbane, area is 15,842 km²[2][3], not 5,974 km². This data needs to be verified, a threefold difference is too much.

References

  1. ^ "3218.0 – Regional Population Growth, Australia, 2017-18: Population Estimates by Local Government Area (ASGS 2018), 2017 to 2018". Australian Bureau of Statistics. Australian Bureau of Statistics. 27 March 2019. Retrieved 25 October 2019. Estimated resident population, 30 June 2018.
  2. ^ "2016 Census Community Profile – Greater Brisbane (3GBRI – GCCSA)". Australian Bureau of Statistics. Archived from the original on 14 July 2017.
  3. ^ "Archived copy". Archived from the original on 14 July 2017. Retrieved 2 July 2017.CS1 maint: archived copy as title (link), ZIPed Excel spreadsheet. Cover

Even with whole Scenic Rim Region is total: 10,217 km², and + whole Somerset Region is total: 15,590 km² (see map), or with whole Scenic Rim Region (total 10,217 km²), and + whole City of Gold Coast+Sunshine Coast Region is total: 13,805 km² (see map), this is less than official data for Greater Brisbane (15,842 km²).

I finded two official maps (from "gov" pages): [1] [2], unfortunately no LGAs markered. It looks like Greate Brisbane also includes (propably whole) Scenic Rim Region and Somerset Region + half of Lockyer Valley Region (see the range and shape of the maps). So, this is probably what Greater Brisbane looks like in numbers (per official maps):

Local government area Population (2018) Area
City of Brisbane 1 231 605 1,343 km²
Moreton Bay Region 459 585 2,042 km²
Logan City 326 615 958 km²
City of Ipswich 213 638 1,094 km²
Redland City 156 863 537 km²
Scenic Rim Region 42 583 4,243 km²
Somerset Region 25 887 5,373 km²
part of Lockyer Valley Region part of 41,011 part of 2,269 km²
Total per maps 2 456 773+ 15,590 km²+
Total per official numbers 2 462 637 15,842 km²

One of the "gov" sources show Greater Brisbane on map in the same shape than previous "gov" sources, but shows only 5 administrative units (LGA from my first wikitable: City of Brisbane, Moreton Bay Region, Logan City, City of Ipswich, Redland City) in the text [3]. This is absurd. Subtropical-man ( | en-2) 21:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The three maps you have found for the GCCSA area are correct at https://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/factsheetsgeography/$file/Greater%20Capital%20City%20Statistical%20Area%20-%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf ; https://quickstats.censusdata.abs.gov.au/census_services/getproduct/census/2016/communityprofile/3GBRI?opendocument ; https://www.agriculture.gov.au/abares/research-topics/aboutmyregion/greater-brisbane#regional-overview
The later map you linked to reflects the old Statistical Division area which were the old ABS geographical classification for capital cities before they were replaced with Greater Capital City Statistical Areas about 10 years ago. Having overlaid the GCCSA map with a map of current QLD LGAs you are correct that the GCCSA also substantially includes Scenic Rim, Somerset and Lockyer Valley. This was already reflected in the list of LGAs in the infobox (a lot of the other Aus city articles are lazy and just say 'various' or '25 LGAs') however I have noted that Lockyer Valley is only partial. The population for the GCCSA is 2.5 million, only very very marginally larger than the old Statistical Division (about 60,000 or so larger) despite being much larger geographically because the outlying areas are extremely sparsely populated.StormcrowMithrandir 02:19, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
It's worth pointing out that source of Australian Bureau of Statistics - Greater Capital City Statistical Areas show two statistical units on map:
  • Capital City Statistical Division (five LGAs: City of Brisbane, Moreton Bay Region, Logan City, City of Ipswich, Redland City) - see gray color and map description
  • Greater Capital City Statistical Area (five LGAs - as above + Scenic Rim Region + Somerset Region + part of Lockyer Valley Region) - see orange-green line and map description
Subtropical-man ( | en-2) 22:38, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I think this table is good for the article:

Local government area Population[1] (2018) Area Density Capital
City
Statistical
Division
Greater
Capital
City
Statistical
Area
City of Brisbane 1 231 605 1343 km² 917 /km²
Moreton Bay Region 459 585 2042 km² 225 /km²
Logan City 326 615 958 km² 341 /km²
City of Ipswich 213 638 1094 km² 195 /km²
Redland City 156 863 537 km² 292 /km²
Scenic Rim Region 42 583 4243 km² 10 /km²
Somerset Region 25 887 5373 km² 5 /km²
Lockyer Valley Region (part) 5 864 252 km² 18 /km²

OR

Local government area Population[1] (2018) Area Density Capital
City
Statistical
Division
Greater
Capital
City
Statistical
Area
City of Brisbane 1 231 605 1343 km² 917 /km²
Moreton Bay Region 459 585 2042 km² 225 /km²
Logan City 326 615 958 km² 341 /km²
City of Ipswich 213 638 1094 km² 195 /km²
Redland City 156 863 537 km² 292 /km²
Total 2 388 303 5974 km² 400 /km²
Scenic Rim Region 42 583 4243 km² 10 /km²
Somerset Region 25 887 5373 km² 5 /km²
Lockyer Valley Region (part) 5 864 252 km² 18 /km²
Total 2 462 637 15 842 km² 156 /km²

OR

Local government area Population[1] (2018) Area Density Capital
City
Statistical
Division
Greater
Capital
City
Statistical
Area

(Greater
Brisbane)
City of Brisbane 1,231,605 1,343 km² 917 /km²
Moreton Bay Region 459,585 2,042 km² 225 /km²
Logan City 326,615 958 km² 341 /km²
City of Ipswich 213,638 1,094 km² 195 /km²
Redland City 156,863 537 km² 292 /km²
Total 2,388,303 5,974 km² 400 /km²
Scenic Rim Region 42,583 4,243 km² 10 /km²
Somerset Region 25,887 5,373 km² 5 /km²
Lockyer Valley Region (part) 5,864 252 km² 18 /km²
Total 2,462,637 15,842 km² 156 /km²

OR

Local government area Population[1] (2018) Area Density Capital
City
Statistical
Division
Greater
Capital
City
Statistical
Area

(Greater
Brisbane)
SEQ-councils.png
City of Brisbane 1,231,605 1,343 km² 917 /km²
Moreton Bay Region 459,585 2,042 km² 225 /km²
Logan City 326,615 958 km² 341 /km²
City of Ipswich 213,638 1,094 km² 195 /km²
Redland City 156,863 537 km² 292 /km²
Total 2,388,303 5,974 km² 400 /km²
Scenic Rim Region 42,583 4,243 km² 10 /km²
Somerset Region 25,887 5,373 km² 5 /km²
Lockyer Valley Region (part) 5,864 252 km² 18 /km²
Total 2,462,637 15,842 km² 156 /km² Map of Greater Brisbane (except Sunshine Coast i Gold Coast)

Subtropical-man ( | en-2) 23:29, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Of those two units, one is superceded and redundant. The Statistical Divisions were replaced with the Greater Capital City Statistical Areas by the ABS about ten years ago. Prior to that, all their statistics/census data for capital cities used Capital City Statistical Divisions (there are no statistics published by the ABS for these since then). 10 years ago they implemented the new Australian Standard Geographical Classification which created new forms of statistical areas which replaced all the old ones - that includes the new Greater Capital City Statistical Areas which have been used by the ABS in all their statistics and census data, etc since that time, directly replacing the old Statistical Divisions. The reason the linked maps show the old Statistical Divisions is to compare then with the new GCCSAs which were being implemented at that time to familiarise people with the changes. Given that they were abolished the Statistical Divisions have no statistical use since 2010/11 when the new geographical classification replaced them. The article does give a full list of those LGAs which make up the GCCSA (unlike most of the other Aus capital city articles which just say eg '24 LGAs', and noting that Lockyer Valley is only partial. The map you have there is actually a map of South East Queensland, not the Brisbane GCCSA, as that map includes the Sunshine and Gold Coasts as well as most of the Lockyer Valley. It is definitely appropriate for the SEQ article. --StormcrowMithrandir 23:11, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
If this is true, why are there no new sources describing LGAs in Greater Brisbane? There is one official source who describes Greater Brisbane as the 5x LGA, why not 8? There is not sources for new Greater Brisbane (8x LGA), despite the fact that almost 10 years have passed since the change. What's going on here? Sources are needed for a new division (for 8 LGAs)! I only found the maps. Subtropical-man ( | en-2) 23:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
That is because the boundaries of the Greater Capital City Statistical Areas as defined by the Australian Bureau of Statistics do not concur with LGA boundaries. They are not governmental areas - they are statistical areas for the publication of statistics and their boundaries do not concur with LGA boundaries so there is not a specific list of LGAs that it overlaps with as they are very separate and distinct concepts with no relation to each other - one is local government areas for provision of rubbish, local roads, etc defined by the state government - the other is defined by the federal government for collection and publication of statistics and the boundaries are based on urban sprawl/commuting patterns/labour markets. There are maps of the GCCSAs but they have no reason to refer to LGAs. In fact, in this article, we do note roughly what the LGAs/partial LGAs included in the GCCSA are, which is more than is done on the other Australian capital city articles like Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, etc - they just say 'covers approximately 23 LGAs' etc - LGAs being a political/local government unit with arbitary boundaries rather than an organic metropolitan area so their use is very limited in describing metro areas. Also the source you noted is a particular QLD govt agency not the ABS - the ABS defines statistical areas for metro areas, etc in Australia--StormcrowMithrandir 07:31, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
The ABS draws lines on the map to suit its purposes. That's not the basis of notability of places in Wikipedia. Brisbane is a gazetted "population centre" (previously called city/town) [4] (so satisfies Wikipedia notability rules). That's the subject of this article, the urban extent from flows from the centre as identified in the gazettal (whose coords are the Brisbane GPO). On that definition Brisbane is a continuously expanding urban area but it does not yet extend to encompass the Scenic Rim or Somerset Region but certainly does extend to Moreton Bay Region, City of Logan, City of Ipswich, and City of Redland. It pretty soon will probably extend to the Gold Coast (the developments around Coomera are almost bridging the existing gap) at which point its urban extent will be into the Tweed area in northern NSW. This presents great difficulties for everyone as traditionally distinct places become one vast metropolis. At the 2016 census this is what the ABS considered the urban area of Brisbane. So if we use something from the ABS for this article, it should be the "UCL" (urban centre) map and data. OrKerry (talk) 22:56, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
It is worth looking at the definitions of the various ABS area, e.g. Urban Centre, Significant Urban Centre, which can aggregrate a number of pre-urban UCLs with gaps of 5km etc. So UCLs are more-or-less wthe current urgan boundary, while SUAs are sort-of estimating where those boundaries are likely to be heading towards in the future). Kerry (talk) 23:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Lead[edit]

Caltraser5 reverted my edit rather than discuss it here, and then rudely attacked me on my talk page. The reason that Meanjin was in the lead and bold, was because it has a redirect from the Meanjin page, which happens to be a journal, but otherwise would be a simple redirect. There is a growing movement and wish for acknowledging Indigenous names of places in Australia (highlighted by NAIDOC week right now), and our readers would expect to find this in the lead, in a way that expresses what it is and where it comes from. Important facts from the body need to be included in the lead. I'm sure that the lead could do with further improvement per WP:LEAD and WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, but the use of reversion and labelling good faith edits vandalism is not how we edit on Wikipedia. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 01:23, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

"Important facts from the body need to be included in the lead." - It's already in the lead, what you did was shuffle around the intro.--Caltraser5 (talk) 10:38, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
I apologise for my earlier comments, your edit was not vandalism, but it frustrated me. I'm sorry.--Caltraser5 (talk) 11:18, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi Caltraser5, okay, apology accepted, we are all human. I will remove the section from my talk page. However, if you find yourself so frustrated by a change in an article you have edited, you should probably read and reflect on WP:OWN from time to time (we all could!).
With regard to the positioning of the alternative name, according to WP:OTHERNAMES, alternative names "should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph", and MOS:BOLDREDIRECT says alternative names should be bolded. (Italics have trickier rules and I don't think apply here.) I'm about to make a small addition in parenthesis about the pronunciation of the word, but will leave it where it is for now. This doesn't mean that any other editor, including you, should be inhibited from moving it into the first paragraph in the future. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 01:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Understood, thankyou. --Caltraser5 (talk) 10:07, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Excerpt on 20th c. Civil Liberties Movement[edit]

I was unsure whether something relating to the civil liberties movement and struggle for freedom of speech, should be included in the Intro:History section. I wrote a sentence for it, but I'd rather have input on this one. In the late 20th century, Brisbane became a battleground in the struggle for civil liberties and freedom of speech, against the authoritarianism of the Bjelke-Petersen government. [1] --Caltraser5 (talk) 00:09, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
  1. ^ "Remembering Revolution". John Oxley Library. Retrieved 21 September 2021.